April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

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ShockoPopper
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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95127Post ShockoPopper
Sun May 12, 2019 4:34 am

Hi gents - I'm sorry for being absent for several days. I'm out this weekend and next. I can do the 26th, and I'd vote to postpone until then. But I'm totally OK if you want to move forward with those that are available. I've proved I can actually pull off a naval invasion. :roll:
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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95128Post Bill
Sun May 12, 2019 9:13 am

Here's my preference:
  • Play today.
  • Axis might have an A.I. player or two.
  • Allies drive a stake through the Axis' heart.
  • Then start a new game.
This isn't a strong preference, given my sympathy for the Axis team's depleted player roster.

The main impetus for the "play today" approach is to avoid the whirlpool sequence of postponement, postponement, postponement, cancellation.

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Zarin_lives
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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95129Post Zarin_lives
Sun May 12, 2019 9:36 am

If we do get a majority of votes to play tonight, one option is to limit aggression toward a newly A.I.'d country. We have done this before when a player was absent, defending against their A.I. aggression is fine but no offensive actions are allowed on any level.

Unfortunately this does absolutely nothing for the A.I.'s ability to royally screw up any plans the player had before the computer takes over even for one session. This is especially important given the year we are in currently in the game.
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petropavlov
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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95130Post petropavlov
Sun May 12, 2019 10:18 am

I have no problem postponing, I may be underestimating the AI but for my part I don't think there's much to be learned from battling Robo-Japan

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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95151Post Bill
Mon May 13, 2019 3:24 pm

The 12 May 2019 Session was cancelled.

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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95152Post Bill
Mon May 13, 2019 3:28 pm

Springtime for Hitler Attendance

Please let the group know if you will not be playing in Session 6 of WPO's Spring HoI4 session on Sunday, 19 May 2019
Player Availability.PNG
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Players can edit their foreseeable availability at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95194Post Bill
Wed May 15, 2019 6:21 pm

Sunday's game is a go (according to the projected player attendance).

For Sunday's HoI4 Game ("Springtime for Hitler", Session 6), it looks like the only player that will be missing will be Shocko.

Anyone else have schedule conflicts and won't be able to make it on Sunday, 19 May 2019?

Looking forward to seeing y'all in 4 days.

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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95198Post jmland
Wed May 15, 2019 7:44 pm

Axis projected Lineup

Germany-Joe
Japan-Lobo
Manchuria-Nixon
Italy-Zarin (?)
Romania Ummd (?)
Hungary Nixon (dual box)

pls confirm or suggest alternate lineup

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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95199Post Zarin_lives
Wed May 15, 2019 8:06 pm

I will be there for 5/19
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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95220Post Bill
Thu May 16, 2019 10:30 pm

Zarin_lives wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:06 pm
I will be there for 5/19
Outstanding. See you on Sunday.

Anyone know if Sir Garnet or other players will be joining us this Sunday, 19 May?

(if so, which nation ?)

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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95235Post greyhoundgames
Sun May 19, 2019 8:46 pm

So there was some heavy displeasure with military access fighting this session. We obviously have to make some thing official about this

1) Its clear that military access should not be allowed to a country unless you are at war with that countries enemies
2) Its clear that japan needs to win early. If the game runs to 1941-42 or higher, and china is not locked down then japan can be expecting allies to be landing there. The game mechanics provide adequate defense against this, trade interdiction and getting china out of the picture before its ports are usable by the allies. I don't think its fair to say we were going to win the war in 1943 if the allies had not come in. Its already to late at this point. The whole point of the USA's late entry is that once it gets in the war, it can do stuff. Hence saying USA coming in china is unfair in 1943 defeats the whole point of USA. If USA could come into china in 39 or even 40 then maybe that would be unfair. Its also important to point out that USA was pulled into the war early because of axis descisions to rush tension. Having usa show up places a bit earlier is thus a natural consequence of that(even though in this case its not that early)
3) Landing troops in russia via europe is also preventable with game mechanics.

Now its possible to say that its not historic to allow americans into russia. However neither is having india and japan fight it out, neither is having russia and japan fight it out. This to me feels like were getting into territory of "no innovating strategy" due to desire for historic games.

Those things being said, I am happy to play even if everybody else wants all the things I disagree with.

jmland
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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95237Post jmland
Sun May 19, 2019 9:10 pm

here is a copy of the rules that Alex posted:

A. GENERAL RULES
1. Wars can only be started via NF until two majors are at war with each other (this includes France as a major but not China).
2. No major may send volunteers to any conflict except the SCW. Only Germany, Italy, and the USSR may send volunteers to the SCW.
3. The Western Allies and Soviets may not give each other military access. They are a team, but only in the sense of "the enemy of my enemy." However, if the Axis invade any neutral except Poland that borders the Soviet Union, that country could join the Allies. In this case, the Soviets may obtain military access from the country so they can help defend it. This does not allow the Soviets to stack units in the same province with either UK or US for joint defense. (Countries potentially affected by this are Sweden, Turkey and Persia.)
4. Countries may not exert political pressure on human opponents to change their alignment or prepare a coup against them.
5. The Allies may not act against the reoccupation of the Rhineland or the partitioning of Czechoslovakia.
6. Divisions may not be disbanded early in the game to take advantage of the training/experience system. For the same reason, partial-strength divisions may not be merged.
7. If one or more minors are being played by a human player, they may not have more than 25% of MIC on aircraft production, nor more than 25% of MIC on tank production.
8. If a human player controls China, no Lend Lease may be sent to China, unless Japan declares war on the USSR. In this case, the Soviet player may send Lend Lease to China, but even no more than 10%/month of the Soviet’s output of anything.
9. NAVs and Kamikazes must have a wing size of 100.
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B. WARS – DOWs, FACTIONS & ANNEXATION
10. If during the Winter War Finland asks to join either the Allies or the Axis, their request must be declined.
11. The Axis may not invade and annex the traditional Axis minor allies, i.e. Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria, unless those countries change alignment to something other than fascist (or non-aligned, which is how Romania begins the game). The same is true if one of those minors joins a faction other than the Axis.
12. All minor allies and puppets must be called into all wars, both offensive and defensive
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C. SPECIAL RULES FOR FORTS
13. Players may not build forts beyond level 7. NFs may be used to build forts beyond level 7, but if the NF is used before the maximum level is reached, the player may not exceed it.
14. The USA may not build forts during peacetime anywhere.
15. No forts may be built on either side of the Franco-Belgian border until the first spring or summer after France and Germany are at war with each other. (“spring” = 4th week of March through 3rd week of June; “summer” = 4th week of June through 3rd week of September)
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D. NATION-SPECIFIC RULES
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JAPAN
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16. Japan must form its own faction and has the same restrictions with respect to cooperation with the Axis that Comintern does with the Allies. (see General Rules above)
17. If Japan and the USSR have a NAP, and if either country maintains at least 24 divisions (minimum 6 line battalions) along the border with the other country, that country may not be DOW’ed by the other before 1/1/42. If either country maintains a minimum of 48 divisions, it may not be DOW’ed before 1/1/43.
18. Japan may not send volunteers to the SCW.
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ITALY
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19. With two exceptions, Italian fleets and TF’s may not leave the Mediterranean Sea until either Gibraltar or Suez is taken by the Axis. The first exception is submarines, which can operate anywhere within their range (home base in the Mediterranean). The second exception is that Italy may station one TF in East Africa, consisting of no more than 10 screens (DDs and CLs).
----------
USA
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20. The USA may not place more than 1 division on any of their smaller Pacific islands during peace time (that is, anywhere except Hawaii).
21. The Philippines are permitted no more than 15 divisions in peacetime, only 3 of which may be based on USA templates.
22. Regardless of WT or other considerations, the USA may immediately join the Allies if Moscow falls or if any port on the island of Great Britain is captured.
23. On 1/1/42, the USA is freed of all restrictions and may enter any and all existing wars either via invitation to faction or by using war plan NFs.
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GERMANY & THE USSR
---------- 24. If Germany offers the research treaty to the Soviets, acceptance by the Soviets is optional. However, if it is accepted then the M-R Pact must also be offered and accepted. If the first treaty is rejected by the Soviets, then the M-R Pact becomes optional for both countries.
25. If the Republicans win the SCW and if the Soviets subsequently guarantee them, then Spain may not be attacked until the USSR is at war with Germany. However, if Republican Spain is guaranteed by the USSR and joins the Comintern, then it is permitted attack them first, since it will still result in war with the USSR. If the Nationalists win the SCW, then the Axis may not invade Spain at all. They must either persuade them to join the Axis or leave them as a friendly but neutral neighbor.
26. Prior to war with Germany, Soviet aggressions are limited to those countries for which they get claims in the M-R Pact. In those cases, the USSR must first deliver the ultimatum to gain the claimed states and may only go to war if the ultimatum is refused. Per rule #1, they may also start any wars that are allowed by NFs.
27. German occupation policy against the USSR must be set to “Harshest” at all times (to represent global hatred of communism and hopefully to simulate the trouble with long supply lines)
28. If the Soviets make a NAP with Japan, see rule #17.
29. If the USSR has annexed or puppeted Finland, the neutrality spirit that blocks war justification on Sweden may be removed from the save file at the option of Germany. In this case, the Axis is permitted to justify against Sweden, but the USSR may not do so.



I would add the following: (for discussion)

Rule 3- Add (or change to) "Each of the various alliances (European Axis, GEACPS, Comintern, Allies) may not give military access to another alliance. They MAY grant naval basing rights.

Rule 8 Add "US may send LL to China in the following amounts 100 A/C per month, 1000 Inf Equip/month (historical)

Rule about Turkey, Switzerland, Sweden (no DOW and no bringing them into an alliance)

Rule about French Fleet and Case Anton (UK can't take Fleet and Germany can't do CASE ANTON unless Allies declare war on Vichy)
Rule about Finland (no 2nd war against Finland, Finland can join the Axis after Barbarossa)
Rule about Iran/Afghanistan (no DOW or influencing)

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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95240Post mikeydz
Mon May 20, 2019 8:50 am

jmland wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:10 pm


Rule 3- Add (or change to) "Each of the various alliances (European Axis, GEACPS, Comintern, Allies) may not give military access to another alliance. They MAY grant naval basing rights.
A couple of points about your rule 3 change.

1. You don't mention the United Front, but I'm assuming from the post game discussion last night, they would be a part of this rule.

2. Before the previous session, the concern was the potential gamey use of MA by the Allies in Russia. This past session, the CW troops in Western Russia basically sat around freezing their balls off. I wasn't watching the US and how any of it's units were used, but I didn't hear any accusations of gamey play.

3. In the post game discussion, the issue mainly was the fact because of the perceived threat that the Allied troops in Russia caused, Japan was forced to defend the Soviet border and move 100 divisions off the China front. That (along with the official entry of the Allies into the war in Japan) has caused Japan to have to retreat in China. China has not recaptured most of the territory lost.

So far, IMO, my feelings on this has not changed. CW troops in the west haven't done anything but defend. And the number of CW troops in the west is not what has allowed the Soviets to deploy a healthy army against Japan. Again, I don't know how active any US forces have been in the far east, but just looking at the front lines, it doesn't look like there has be a huge change (Manchuko has been pushed out of Heilungkiang province, Japan has taken Vladivostok). The main change is Japan has to defend the Soviet border, which they would have had to do anyway whether or not Allied troops were in the SU.

And I think the earlier arguments for allowing MA still apply. It can be countered by interdicting Allied troops trying to get to the SU (The US was in the war against the Axis so they did not transit during peace, so were subject to Axis interdiction), and supply feeding the troops in foreign territory can be interdicted. Troops in foreign lands don't share intel. Any Allied troops sent to the SU are not available to defend elsewhere.

If this is banned, I'll still play, but I don't think Allied MA in the SU has had any effect. Japan not defending the Soviet border is just as bad as UK not defending England.

As for MA to China, looking at the house rules for this game, China can not join the Allies. So China either forms the United Front or it had to stay unaligned. Based on this rule proposal, can an unaligned China get MA, but a UF China cannot? If not, and we couple this with China LL restrictions, are we saying the Meta for WPO games is China should basically fall every time (barring perfect play by the China player and sub-optimal play by Japan)?
Rule 8 Add "US may send LL to China in the following amounts 100 A/C per month, 1000 Inf Equip/month (historical)
The US can't LL to China until WT is >50%. US-China LL requires convoys, which means it's limited by how many convoys China has available. And if Japan is doing it's job, Japan can interdict the LL. This is the case for any lend lease that has to be shipped via convoy. If there should be any LL restrictions, it should be on over land LL, not convoy LL.
Rule about Turkey, Switzerland, Sweden (no DOW and no bringing them into an alliance)
I agree with this. I think this was the intent of Alex mod anyway, so was surprised when ya'll got Turkey to join the Axis.
Rule about French Fleet and Case Anton (UK can't take Fleet and Germany can't do CASE ANTON unless Allies declare war on Vichy)
I'm ok with this. This was discussed on the Allied side during the '37 Sealion game, and we felt taking the French Fleet would be wrong, so I'm ok adding this as a house rule for future games.
Rule about Finland (no 2nd war against Finland, Finland can join the Axis after Barbarossa)
I don't have a feeling either way on this
Rule about Iran/Afghanistan (no DOW or influencing)
I've expressed my feelings in the past about "influencing" so I would ban that, but I'm ok with DOW
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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95245Post Bill
Mon May 20, 2019 2:56 pm

Acknowledged:

There is no game mechanic that allows future belligerents to interfere with pre-positioning friendly divisions in safe, advantageous positions before hostilities.

Aside from house rules, what can be done to prevent players from placing a very large number of units in a nation ("dogpiling") before hostilities break out or event during a war? Players can gain an advantage by allowing military access to allied and future allied nations.
  • Commonwealth nations place units in France before "Danzig or War"
  • USA moves 30 divisions to the Soviet Far East (using the Military Access rule) before Japan and USA are at war.
  • Germany moves armor units to Italian North Africa before the war.
The HoI4 game mechanics do prevent dogpiling to an extent:
  • Opportunity costs. By strengthening one area, other areas have diminished combat forces, limiting actions in other parts of the globe
  • Risk. "All-in" is an extreme example of England (and others) placing all available units into France, thus opening up England to a successful naval invasion.
  • Non-aggression pacts (e.g. USA cannot attack Japanese forces from the USSR if the USSR and Japan have a NAP).
  • During war, nations can sink troop convoys.
  • Note: this post might have overlooked an obvious antidote and render the entire discussion moot.
Public discussion of this on the Paradox Forums can be found at:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/in ... d.1179788/

Summary:
  • The main purpose of this post is to acknowledge that there is no game mechanic to prevent future belligerents from positioning units in such a way to give them an advantage that they would not have during wartime.
  • Players are able to take advantage of this situation.
Last edited by Bill on Mon May 20, 2019 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: April 7th Game (Springtime for hitler)

Post: # 95246Post Bill
Mon May 20, 2019 3:02 pm

greyhoundgames wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 8:46 pm
The game mechanics provide adequate defense against this,
I agree with this point about what the game mechanics allow and disallow when contemplating potential house rules.

My general reaction is to limit house rules to a bare minimum, especially if the game allows all players to avail themselves to the same game features.

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