June Game

Man yours, and others' guns! ...Sundays 8PM-11PM EST
Bill
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96279Post Bill
Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:54 am

Will log on at 6 PM East Coast time to test Hydra Hot Patch with 2d player (TBD)
Bill wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:37 pm
Alex wrote about his mod and the Hydra hot patch:

alex_bruniusToday at 1:07 PM
Pretty sure it will work but the changes to ship modules and leaders from 1.7.1 will be overwritten by the mod.
@unbutu, I'm assuming you are hosting the game today.

If you wish, I can log in early (6 PM East Coast time, 3 PM Pacific).
We can test and see if the 1.7.1 Hydra hot patch works with Alex mod 0.7.

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ummd
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96280Post ummd
Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:45 am

Edited save with German preparations. Ill try and be online before 8
Attachments
WPO_session2_edited.zip
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Bill
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96295Post Bill
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:40 am

Fun game yesterday. Thanks to UMMD's and Greyhound's dedication to log in from vacation spots.

Reminder:

No HoI4 game on Sunday, 7 July.

The next WPO HoI4 game will be on 14 July.

Bill
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96336Post Bill
Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:49 pm

Some folks were asking for the save from the 30 June 2019 JUNE WPO Hearts of Iron IV game.
WPO end of Session 30 June 2019.zip
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greyhoundgames
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96440Post greyhoundgames
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:23 pm

Just a note. There is a pretty big exploit in alex mod that we should house rule in now. if you broke this well just don't continue to do so for the rest of the game.

He has 2 tech which improve refit efficiency for ships. The same ones that in vanilla let you upgrade say a plane to a new variant faster. The ship part is modded on. If you were to build all your ships as empty as possible and then refit using the techs you would cut the cost of building new ships way down. So don't build new ships empty for this purpose.

mikeydz
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96441Post mikeydz
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:27 am

greyhoundgames wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:23 pm
Just a note. There is a pretty big exploit in alex mod that we should house rule in now. if you broke this well just don't continue to do so for the rest of the game.

He has 2 tech which improve refit efficiency for ships. The same ones that in vanilla let you upgrade say a plane to a new variant faster. The ship part is modded on. If you were to build all your ships as empty as possible and then refit using the techs you would cut the cost of building new ships way down. So don't build new ships empty for this purpose.
Is this specific to certain ships?

I just tested as Japan, and using 1 factory, an "empty" '36 CV takes roughly 1580 days to build. A fully fitted '36 CV takes 3070 days. Refitting the "empty" '36 CV to the fully fitted on takes 2210 days without the tech. With the tech, it takes 1668 days.

So...
3070 for a full build.
3789 for a "empty" build then refit.
3248 for a "empty" build the refit (with bonus tech).

So even with the tech, it takes longer to build "empty" then refit than it does to build the full version right off.
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Alex_brunius
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96442Post Alex_brunius
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:47 am

mikeydz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:27 am
Is this specific to certain ships?

I just tested as Japan, and using 1 factory, an "empty" '36 CV takes roughly 1580 days to build. A fully fitted '36 CV takes 3070 days. Refitting the "empty" '36 CV to the fully fitted on takes 2210 days without the tech. With the tech, it takes 1668 days.

So...
3070 for a full build.
3789 for a "empty" build then refit.
3248 for a "empty" build the refit (with bonus tech).

So even with the tech, it takes longer to build "empty" then refit than it does to build the full version right off.
Thanks for putting it to the test!

The main parts of the exploit is that:
1.) The resource cost for guns/hangars ( which can be quite substantial ) is only applied during the refit, and the resource cost for the ship is only applied to the base building.
2.) You can build a ship with guns researched 1-1.5 year later "dodging" the high cost to refit guns from one model to another
3.) You can very cheaply upgun starting BBs by refitting guns into their empty slots ( which is totally unhistorical since Battleships were not build with space to fit an extra turret or two of 16 inch guns just in case someone wanted to add it later ).


This is what our rule in the other game looks like:
"10. Ship refits may not fill empty slots with new modules that consume resources."

greyhoundgames
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96445Post greyhoundgames
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:51 am

So the main thing your saying is you can "take a loan" from the future by building the ship but not paying for its resources until years later when you install the guns?' (I could easily see a massive ship being built with empty slots if it didn't plan to see use until those things were added later)

Thats not as bad, I thought the math mikey posted would come out showing it cheaper then building it in the first place with the discounts being so big. Does that mean refitting is terribly inefficient normally?

mikeydz
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96446Post mikeydz
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:12 am

Alex_brunius wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:47 am

The main parts of the exploit is that:
1.) The resource cost for guns/hangars ( which can be quite substantial ) is only applied during the refit, and the resource cost for the ship is only applied to the base building.
2.) You can build a ship with guns researched 1-1.5 year later "dodging" the high cost to refit guns from one model to another
3.) You can very cheaply upgun starting BBs by refitting guns into their empty slots ( which is totally unhistorical since Battleships were not build with space to fit an extra turret or two of 16 inch guns just in case someone wanted to add it later ).


This is what our rule in the other game looks like:
"10. Ship refits may not fill empty slots with new modules that consume resources."
Ok, testing with UK in '36 start.

A "shell" DD (only 1 gun and engine) cost 680.
A full DD with 2 DC(I) and Sonar(I) cost 900.
A full DD with 2 DC(III) and Sonar(II) cost 1040.
Refitting the shell to the full (old tech) cost 230, so a total cost of 910.
Refitting the shell to the full (new tech) cost 370, so a total cost of 1050.
Refitting the old to the new cost 275, so 1175 total cost.

In real life, it's not realistic to build a "shell", wait on the new tech, then add it in once the tech is developed. So in real life, the scenario is building the full DD with the old tech (for 900), and then refitting it with the new tech (275). So you are saving 125 production by building a shell and taking it up to a new tech build.

So in principle, I agree with the house rule, but in practice, I have a few issues with it.

1. What about Radar? With this rule in place, you can't go back and refit any old ships you have to add in radar once you develop the tech. That seems extreme.
2. Increased micro. With this rule in place, you now have to track which ship designs are eligible to be refit into which new designs. Ship design A can refit to design B or E, but not to C or D. The more designs you create, the harder it is to keep everything straight. And if you don't, you can inadvertently break the rule.
3. Enforceability. Just how would someone monitor this? Once a ship has been refit, there isn't any easy way to go back and see if it was a refit, or it was built from scratch at the current design. The only way to police it would be to open the save and check any refits in progress. It's virtually impossible to detect this during a game, as opposed to say the rule concerning Volunteers having to be Infantry types. If you see German tanks in the SCW, you can call that out and immediately fix it. Not so this.
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Bill
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96447Post Bill
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:27 am

mikeydz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:12 am
1. What about Radar? With this rule in place, you can't go back and refit any old ships you have to add in radar once you develop the tech. That seems extreme.
I believe that the houserule that Alex uses states that there is no upgrading of old ship components to new ship components

IF

the new ship components require resources (e.g. steel).

(my overall houserule philosophy is 'the less special rules, the better...put it into the mod if possible'. But I recognize that modding takes time and effort. Sometimes a houserule is more practical).

Alex_brunius
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96448Post Alex_brunius
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:45 am

Bill wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:27 am
mikeydz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:12 am
1. What about Radar? With this rule in place, you can't go back and refit any old ships you have to add in radar once you develop the tech. That seems extreme.
I believe that the houserule that Alex uses states that there is no upgrading of old ship components to new ship components

IF

the new ship components require resources (e.g. steel).

(my overall houserule philosophy is 'the less special rules, the better...put it into the mod if possible'. But I recognize that modding takes time and effort. Sometimes a houserule is more practical).
Correct. The rule is only there to prevent putting main guns or flight decks ( The only things costing resources ) in empty slots.
All other such as radar or secondaries are perfectly fair game, and as shown in the example the possible gains are small or non-existent in most cases for those.

These applications are limited/few enough and expensive enough that it's not impossible to enforce either. If someone has upgraded a starting ship with mainguns/flight deck that's an obvious foul, and if someone built a new ship they should have a copy of the design that can be seen under "obsolete designs" when inspecting the savegame after if you suspect it.

mikeydz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:12 am
In real life, it's not realistic to build a "shell", wait on the new tech, then add it in once the tech is developed. So in real life, the scenario is building the full DD with the old tech (for 900), and then refitting it with the new tech (275). So you are saving 125 production by building a shell and taking it up to a new tech build.
In real life a ship would never enter refit instantly after being completed, it would go a few years during wartime or a decade or so in peacetime before a refit, during which time it would be useless if you have it as an "empty hull", so the "saving" is not actually a saving because the old tech has served you for X years. 10% cost extra is not much at all to have the DD in service a few extra years compared to either not having the DD until techs are ready some years down the line or not having an upgraded DD in the end.

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Re: June Game

Post: # 96449Post mikeydz
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:06 am

Bill wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:27 am
mikeydz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:12 am
1. What about Radar? With this rule in place, you can't go back and refit any old ships you have to add in radar once you develop the tech. That seems extreme.
I believe that the houserule that Alex uses states that there is no upgrading of old ship components to new ship components

IF

the new ship components require resources (e.g. steel).

(my overall houserule philosophy is 'the less special rules, the better...put it into the mod if possible'. But I recognize that modding takes time and effort. Sometimes a houserule is more practical).
Ok, I see the difference. So as long as it doesn't require resources (like Radar), then you can add it into an empty slot for a refit. That solves concern #1, but I still think the micro required and the possibility of "accidental" violation of the rule is a problem.
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greyhoundgames
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96450Post greyhoundgames
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:28 am

You still have to pay the steel or whatever right? You just pay it later? Or do you avoid the steel completely when refitting?

Alex_brunius
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96451Post Alex_brunius
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:25 pm

mikeydz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:06 am
Ok, I see the difference. So as long as it doesn't require resources (like Radar), then you can add it into an empty slot for a refit. That solves concern #1, but I still think the micro required and the possibility of "accidental" violation of the rule is a problem.
I don't see why you would be concerned about micro?
"With this rule in place, you now have to track which ship designs are eligible to be refit into which new designs."

No nation has more than a few starting capital ships model that could be impacted by the rule, and it's really easy to tell by the upgrade/refit cost if your accidentally are adding a flight deck or main gun ( costing ~2000 a pop ) extra compared to only some minor radar or AA upgrades for say 500.

If you don't look at what an upgrade/refit costs before doing it you really shouldn't be mucking around in the refit interface to begin with ( for your own sake ) :P

greyhoundgames wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:28 am
You still have to pay the steel or whatever right? You just pay it later? Or do you avoid the steel completely when refitting?
How it works is that if the base hull cost 6000 ic and 2 steel and the guns cost 4000 ic and 2 steel when you build the ship normally you pay 10000 ic x 4 steel = 40000 steel days.

If you split it up you pay 6000 x 2 steel for the hull + 4000 x 2 steel for the gun refit = 20000 steel days, half price.

mikeydz
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Re: June Game

Post: # 96452Post mikeydz
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:08 pm

Alex_brunius wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:25 pm
mikeydz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:06 am
Ok, I see the difference. So as long as it doesn't require resources (like Radar), then you can add it into an empty slot for a refit. That solves concern #1, but I still think the micro required and the possibility of "accidental" violation of the rule is a problem.
I don't see why you would be concerned about micro?
"With this rule in place, you now have to track which ship designs are eligible to be refit into which new designs."

No nation has more than a few starting capital ships model that could be impacted by the rule, and it's really easy to tell by the upgrade/refit cost if your accidentally are adding a flight deck or main gun ( costing ~2000 a pop ) extra compared to only some minor radar or AA upgrades for say 500.

If you don't look at what an upgrade/refit costs before doing it you really shouldn't be mucking around in the refit interface to begin with ( for your own sake ) :P
There are non capital designs that can come into conflict with this rule.

For example. Let say I decide to make a cheap ASW DD based on the '36 DD hull. It has only 1 DC in the top slots. I also have a "fleet" DD design that has a normal gun and an AA in the top slots. After a few years, I research DP guns (which cost 1 steel). I create a new fleet design which keeps the normal gun, but replaces the AA with a DP. That's a legal upgrade because even though the DP cost steel, it's replacing the AA and not going into an empty slot. It would not be legal for the ASW design because it's going into an empty slot, and not replacing anything. But the game doesn't know that, so it shows the refit button active and the new design is on the refit list. So in the heat of battle, while you are trying to work fast and you are looking for '36 DDs to upgrade, you see the refit button, click it and choose the upgrade, you now have "cheated" by accident.
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