China discussion for next game

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setloz
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China discussion for next game

Post: # 93587Post setloz
Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:08 am

Guys, first of all, I want to congratulate Jarski for a very well fought campaign. You had a good plan and it showed.

However, it is the 4th game in a row where China falls in 1939. This didn't use to happen as much back when we were playing vanilla.

I'm not entirely sure what the difference between vanilla and this scenario is, so I made a test run.
Jarski's imp mod - china starts with 28 Inf '18, 20 militia and 1 HQ. Economy - 35 base IC
Stock china starts with 32 inf '18 and 10 militia. no HQ. Economy - 20 base IC.
Starting resources are the same.
So, china starts with +15 base IC.

Japan starts with same number of units in both scenarios, but with 20 base IC more in the imp mod. Japan starts the game with significantly higher resource stockpiles in the mod, sometimes 10x bigger (12k energy vs 1k. 7k metal vs 1k. 3.5k rares vs 0.5k. 1.7k oil vs 0.5k.)
So, Japan starts with +20 base IC and significantly higher resource stockpiles, that would otherwise have to be bought using IC.

I didn't have time to do a complete run through and see what units both versions get at the start of the war with Japan, but if you ask me, the starting difference is enough to almost guarantee a japanese win.
It's Lanchester's laws in action: a small advantage in initial stages will snowball into complete advantage.

Edited to add conclusion: China needs a bit of beef up. At least increase its IC and starting stockpiles by the same amount as Japan's.
“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.”
Gen. George S. Patton

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93603Post Jarski
Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:13 am

Well, do take in to consideration the starting dissent and infra in China.

Vanilla China begins the game with 19 base IC, where as Imp China has got 35 IC. So yeah, thats that +16 IC.

After dissent has been removed, Vanilla China has got 20 IC, where as Imp China has got 40 IC. Thats +20.

In terms of actual factories, Vanilla China begins the game with 24 factories, and Imp China has got 46. So thats +22 actual factories. Poor infrastructure devours alot of that benefit though.

One also has to consider the relativity of the increases. +20 IC for China doubles its IC, and gives it a 3rd tech team which for China is much more usefull than the 7th for Japan and the 20% increase in IC.


What comes to the army, I was under the impression Vanilla and Imp China had almost the same army expect the expensive HQ for Imp one, will see whether I should update the OOB to the vanilla sizes, unsure if 4 infantry is so much better than 11 militia for China. And also note that in Imp, 8 of Chinas divisions, the historical german trained elite divisions, start out as 1936s and with various brigades, something the vanilla one does not have.

I have been adopting the stockpile values from the CORE mod, which is one if not the most historically accurate mods out there. Japans stockpiles are from it, Chinese stockpiles I did not yet implement as they do not have such a great impact, talking about some 2K energy and few hundred rares/metal. In any case I do not see it fit to give them an equal stockpile as Japan.

But in any case, I do wholeheartedly agree that China should be able to survive a little longer. Optimal would be that they succumb no sooner than the summer of 1940 or late 1940/very early 1941.

At least that is certain currently that in order to take out China, Japan needs to invest extremely heavily in land and air forces. Any half-assed attempt will not succeed.


That being said, I mentioned the Sino-German cooperation, which in reality played a big part in how well China was prepared for the war. I think the whole cooperation can be expanded by events as currently its not really showing except for Falkenhausen, giving Chinese some minor bonuses, ranging from little IC to faster infra building, extra TC or faster upgrading. The bonuses would end when Germany recognizes Manchukuo but they would be present for the pre-war period and during the critical early stages of the war. The whole event chain has been on my to-do list for ages so nows a good time to start researching and implementing it.

And lastly, thanks, I think I played the best Japan I possibly could, I had a clear plan in my mind and I am glad it turned out so well. You guys did a good job in China, the coasts were defended very nicely, had no way through from there. Maybe some upgrades would have benefitted China more than new units and some engineer brigades for the militias and other units for the dug in bonus.

Also, the bicycles, I think those brave north chinese bicyclemen hastened the whole campaign for me much more than I'd like to even admit!

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93604Post desev
Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:46 pm

Jarski wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:13 am
That being said, I mentioned the Sino-German cooperation, which in reality played a big part in how well China was prepared for the war. I think the whole cooperation can be expanded by events as currently its not really showing except for Falkenhausen, giving Chinese some minor bonuses, ranging from little IC to faster infra building, extra TC or faster upgrading. The bonuses would end when Germany recognizes Manchukuo but they would be present for the pre-war period and during the critical early stages of the war. The whole event chain has been on my to-do list for ages so nows a good time to start researching and implementing it.
That would be a cool addition! :D

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93621Post El Duck
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:48 am

I am not so sure that there is a big problem with China. The problem in our present game was that we had an ai run
China for over the first year. Then we had 3 different players controlling them with 3 different strategies. These factors were exacerbated by JAR's daring and successful strategy. Additionally SET and I felt that the surrender event would fire shortly after Nanking fell so extra resources were employed to insure it was the last capital to fall. Jar has since explained to me that now China will not fall until both capitals fall.

IMHO, tweaking German assistance plus having a human player controlling from the start will be enough for China. Much more will very possibly tilt the balance against Japan. The best outcome for the game I think is for China to fall in late 40 or early 41.

Jar as part of your tweaking I suggest that the Germans give China land doc blueprints.

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93624Post Jarski
Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:34 am

El Duck wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:48 am
Jar as part of your tweaking I suggest that the Germans give China land doc blueprints.
What, spearhead doctrine? xD

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93632Post El Duck
Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:35 pm

Well, I was sort of thinking of "large front" myself but I am always flexible and ready to defer to the expert.

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93639Post setloz
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:39 am

Jarski wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:13 am
One also has to consider the relativity of the increases. +20 IC for China doubles its IC, and gives it a 3rd tech team which for China is much more usefull than the 7th for Japan and the 20% increase in IC.
This is not a good argument. It would be good if infantry units were built using percentages of available IC. Instead, a infantry unit costs the same amount of IC from which national/minister/doctrine modifiers are substracted.
Jarski wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:13 am
And lastly, thanks, I think I played the best Japan I possibly could, I had a clear plan in my mind and I am glad it turned out so well. You guys did a good job in China, the coasts were defended very nicely, had no way through from there. Maybe some upgrades would have benefitted China more than new units and some engineer brigades for the militias and other units for the dug in bonus.
I never wanted to take from your outstanding victory, as I said before, you played a hell of a campaign and I congratulate you for that.
However, the numbers speak for themselves: regardless of who played Japan, they won china in 1939.

I'm sure you will work on this, so as far as I'm concerned the issue is closed....until next game :))
“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.”
Gen. George S. Patton

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93908Post Jarski
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:55 pm

Progress so far and I am inclined to think this is enough of a boost too.

Any thoughts or feedback?

The smaller IC event triggers in December 1936, and the other one in May, 1938, assuming the area is still controlled by China, it gives 2 factories and blueprints for basic AC and basic artillery.

In addition, I tweaked some starting techs/blueprints for China, removed some and added some.

Also, I postponed the Manchukuo event to the mid of may, 1938, which is the historical date. The recall of Falkenhausen in that event naturarly removes the bonuses from Sino-German cooperation which China enjoys since the start of the scenario.
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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93910Post El Duck
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:46 pm

Jarski wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:55 pm
The smaller IC event triggers in December 1936, and the other one in May, 1938, assuming the area is still controlled by China,
What is the area?
Jarski wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:55 pm
In addition, I tweaked some starting techs/blueprints for China, removed some and added some.
What blueprints have you added and what have you deleted?

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93912Post Jarski
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:31 am

The ICs are built to Changde and Huaihua in Hunan. In addition to those two provinces, all the neighbouring provinces need to be controlled.

Starting techs removed:
- Interwar Bomber
- Basic Armored Car
- Early Light Cruiser

Starting blueprints added:
- Interwar Bomber
- Early Anti-Tank Artillery
- Basic Machine Tools
- Great War Tank

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93913Post El Duck
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:06 am

Thanks. That all looks good to me with the exception that I would leave the basic AC alone.

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93914Post Mr_B0narpte
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:18 am

El Duck wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:06 am
Thanks. That all looks good to me with the exception that I would leave the basic AC alone.
Agreed. I imagine you've done it on historical grounds but it would just mean China would never do AC. Even with the tech it's extremely rare a player would ever make them.

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93915Post Jarski
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:24 am

Yes, it was done on historical grounds as China did not have much of an automotive industry. They do get a blueprint for it with the 1938 event when a plant opened that was able to make spare parts of the Leichter Panzerspähwagen.

In any case, do remember that there are new options for a non-slowing brigade, the poor man's AC, also known as the cavalry brigade is a good substitute, and also the bicycles were actually pretty darn good in China.

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93917Post El Duck
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:29 am

Well, it might not be historic but if the objective is to make China somewhat more competitive then the AC BDES are the way to go. While I have not studied the new BDEs as you have, on first look it does not seem that the CAV or bike BDEs add much to defense, which is what China needs.

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Re: China discussion for next game

Post: # 93919Post Jarski
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:48 am

Well in terms of pure defence, I would say artillery or ATs would be the best in any case. Cav brigades have the benefit of having a lower TC load due to needing no oil to be transported.

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