China and capital bombing

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setloz
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China and capital bombing

Post: # 89958Post setloz
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:41 pm

OK, so I think we have another situation. I will bring it out here, since everyone split before I finished writing in the game room.

So, you all know the discussions with the capital bombing rules. It was a mess. I didn't want to touch capital bombing again.
I stopped doing it altogether and moved to taking out the chinese industry piecemeal.
I noticed that whoever was MC-ing China decided to abandon the capital as I was closing in on the completely opposite direction - Chungking. It is a debateable decision from terms of roleplay, but hey, I thought the chinese wanted to leave Nanjing as a free city.

However, I then recalled that upon taking Nanjing, the capital moves to....Chungking. And that's where all my bombers were concentrating as well as half the japanese army.
So, not to get again into crazy talks with bombing Chungking as it would become capital, I left Nanjing untouched. Even more, I painstakingly carved out a path for supply to flow through because the game is broken from what I was told. In the process, some 30 divisions were also allowed to escape...since I didn't want to close that darn path.
But now, I wake up 3 months later with 40 divisions in Nanjing, suddenly attacking my garrisons.
Not fair I say.

So, I went and re-read the rules. It seems I am dumb, there is no rule against closing the capital. Nor is there one forcing me to ever finish the assault on a surrounded capital. I should never have allowed those divisions to escape in the first place...

However, I was told it would be gamey. I can understand that. What I wouldn't want to see is all of my goodwill being abused time and again.
So, given that Chungking WILL be bombed 24/7 regardless of whether it becomes the new capital of China or not, there are 3 options here:
1. Keep the status quo. Stop assaulting the poor garrisons.
2. Else, I surround and destroy troops in Nanjing. Whether I take the bloody capital or not remains to be decided.
3. Edit the capital after I take Nanjing to one of the 2 non-industrial plains near chungking.
“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.”
Gen. George S. Patton

Mr_B0narpte
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Re: China and capital bombing

Post: # 89960Post Mr_B0narpte
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:53 pm

I will abide by whatever the group decide.

However I would like to point out the ESE of China's entire army has been around 8-15% since Nanjing was surrounded on all but one side, and a supply train of provinces was left alone to remain in China's possession. This has had the same effective impact as capital bombing.

El Duck
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Re: China and capital bombing

Post: # 89962Post El Duck
Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:23 pm

I have not looked at china for some time. I will post my thoughts in a day or so after looking at the situation.

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Jarski
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Re: China and capital bombing

Post: # 89970Post Jarski
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:52 am

Well, it was your decision to allow your enemy to have places to deploy newly recruited troops far behind the frontlines and not leave adequate garrisons to defend from such possibility. Speaking of roleplaying, the Imperial Japanese Army would never have not taken Nanjing if it had been handed over to them, let alone allow such a line from the enemy capital to the western strongholds to exist. Now the Chinese are back, although your estimation of 40 divisions deeply lowers my faith in Japanese intelligence, considering there is 21 divisions of militia and 4 infantry. I announce these numbers out of my good will, and probably you would have seen them in the attack on your garrison.

Also, the evacuation of Nanjing and the eastern armies was always a likely outcome for the Chinese Army, and it was planned and prepared for. Had you attempted to pursue them more fiercely, well, it might have caused more casualties for the Chinese, but not necessarily lead to the destruction of any divisions. Lives are cheap in China after all.

So what comes to the choices, I choose option 2.

The Chinese assault will continue, and you will do what you will do with Nanjing. As was mentioned, the Chinese Army has been already fighting in poor conditions, having ESE ranging from 5% to slightly above 10%, so the surrounding of the capital will make little difference, and yes, it is within the rules, although generally considered a tad on the gamey side. But it was something I was expecting to happen, and was in fact quite baffled as to why you left the supply line running from Nanjing.

If you decide to take Nanjing, Chonqing can still be bombed to pieces assuming the requirements of the capital bombing rule are met.

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desev
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Re: China and capital bombing

Post: # 90002Post desev
Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:15 am

I think it is important to remind the last reform of capital bombing effectively approved was that you can target capitals manually as long as you destroy equally the infra in the rest of the area's provinces.

From that base, and given all three options you offered to allies are legal, I would think the lesser bad deal for the game in general and for that war in particular is clearly if allies chose option 3. I'd believe for future campaigns this all could even be coded by event so China could itself move elsewhere the capital or get it automoved as with Soviets.

El Duck
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Re: China and capital bombing

Post: # 90012Post El Duck
Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:01 am

setloz wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:41 pm
So, you all know the discussions with the capital bombing rules. It was a mess. I didn't want to touch capital bombing again.
Choungking WILL be bombed 24/7 regardless of whether it becomes the new capital of China or not[/quote]

IMHO, it is time for Nanjing to be taken by Japan. Given Set's feelings in the above quote, it will be necessary to move the capital by edit (option 3). I agree with Des.

Is there anyone who can't live with option 3?

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Jarski
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Re: China and capital bombing

Post: # 90014Post Jarski
Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:22 am

As the commander of the Soviet military mission in China, I choose option 2.

If Nanjing is taken, the capital will move to Chonqing and not edited anywhere else.

Mr_B0narpte
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Re: China and capital bombing

Post: # 90016Post Mr_B0narpte
Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:48 am

As a potential compromise, I can disband all the units in Nanjing on the agreement it is to be captured. But this is purely I suggestion, I don't mean to enter the discussion except to facilitate an agreement.

El Duck
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Re: China and capital bombing

Post: # 90029Post El Duck
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:44 pm

OK! I will suport the man in charge. The Allies support option 2.

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